12 - Bob Keefe

Featuring Bob Keefe, the Executive Director of E2! We talk the economic impact of IRA, depoliticizing climate action, and advice to future sustainability leaders!

Connect with Bob on LinkedIn. 

Resources:

• Books
  • Clean Economy Now: Stories from the Frontlines of an American Business Revolution by Bob Keefe
  • Climatenomics: Washington, Wall Street, and the Economic Battle to Save our Planet by Bob Keefe
  • Freeing Energy: How Innovators Are Using Local-scale Solar and Batteries to Disrupt the Global Energy Industry from the Outside In by Bill Nussey
  • Creating Climate Wealth by Jigar Shah
  • David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants by Malcolm Gladwell
  • Following the Equator by Mark Twain
  • The War Below: Lithium, Copper, and the Global Battle to Power Our Lives by Ernest Scheyder 
  • The Heat Will Kill You First: Life and Death on a Scorched Planet by Jeff Goodell
• Digital Tools
  •  E2’s Clean Energy Projects Tracker 
     

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Kiersten: Alrighty. Welcome everyone. Longtime listeners probably know that Aparna and I love to meet new people, so it may come as no surprise to learn that I met today's guest after lingering at a screening during DC's Environmental Film Fest, where he was a panelist. The panel really got wheels turning and there was so much conversation afterwards that it rolled over into a nearby bar to continue over food and drinks. From there, we all bonded over some shared geography and the powerful impacts of the IRA. I'm so happy that he agreed to join us as a guest. So without further ado, let me introduce Bob Keefe. He is the Executive Director of E2, leading the organization's work and chapters across the country. A frequent speaker on the clean energy economy, Bob highlights how smart environmental policies boost economic growth. He's testified before Congress and state legislators, and has been featured in major outlets like The New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, and Fox. Bob is the author of Climate-nomics and Clean Economy Now. Before joining E2 in 2011, he spent over two decades as a journalist covering business, politics, and environmental issues nationwide. Welcome, Bob. We're so glad you're here.

[00:01:07] Bob: Oh, so great to be with you. Thanks so much. And and I appreciate that kind introduction, especially the part about we rolled over into a nearby bar that was a great evening. I appreciate you joining us! With the folks that were in the film and at the screening. That was a lot of fun.

[00:01:21] Kiersten: Absolutely. But yeah, To get us started today, our first question is one we ask all of our guests, it's really just to understand your journey to how you got where you are today. So what did you study? What other jobs did you have? You can take it however you'd like, but we'd love to hear a little bit more about you.

[00:01:36] Bob: My journey is probably the most roundabout backwards journey to, environmental advocacy that you could imagine and, clean energy that you can imagine. You know, as you mentioned, I spent about 25 years as a journalist, and that I covered business news in places like the Carolinas and then down into Florida. I was the technology editor at the newspaper in Austin, Texas for a few years. I covered the- Yeah. Hook 'em horns, huh? And, and then I went to California to cover the West for a chain of newspapers, the Cox newspaper chain. Finally ran outta land and turned back and went the other way, and ended up in Washington, covering Congress in the White House for a few years as the Washington Correspondent for the Atlanta Journal Constitution Newspaper. While I was there, I met a friend/mentor of mine who was covering the White House at the time for Bloomberg News, and he would later go on to join as the Federal Advocacy Director for the Natural Resources Defense Council, NRDC. And NRDC had a very small part called E2, which was basically business people who care about the environment. And I knew from my time as a business journalist and as a business editor, that business voices can hold a lot of power, good power and bad power when it comes to influencing policy. And I thought to myself, “man, if we could harness the good of business people who actually care about the environment, who care about climate change, who care about clean energy, you know what, those voices come with power, in the halls of Congress and elsewhere.” I knew that from walking around there as a reporter myself. I was really intrigued with this. And so I joined E2 in 2011 ish and that's what we do today. That's what E2 is all about. We make the business and the economic case for climate and clean energy policy. We do it through the voices of our 10,000 members and supporters who are spread across nine chapters now, in the United States, stretching from Seattle and San Diego, where I happened to live to New York and North Carolina. Our business members, our business people, tell their stories about how climate and clean energy policy can actually create jobs, drive economic growth, bring new investments to areas. We do that at both the federal and the state level and it's impactful. We're going on our 25th year, this year is our 25th anniversary. We've made a lot of progress, but we've got a long way to go still.

[00:04:01] Aparna: Well, happy 25th! Quarter of a century. There you guys go officially rent a car without the tax, right?

Well, we've gotta bring it back to the, the people.

[00:04:13] Bob: That's right.

[00:04:14] Aparna: That's really interesting to hear about how you started so journalism to wanting to convince business people to do good, getting that in into sustainability and the environmental space, and now having a really successful organization that you're heading up.

So thank you for sharing all that, Bob.

[00:04:29] Bob: Yeah, you bet! Thank you!

[00:04:31] Aparna: Of course! Talking about E2. Y'all have been tracking clean energy jobs for 25 years now. We are the Green Collar Podcast. Wanna open the floor, are there some things you can tell us about green collar jobs in America today?

Any cool new trends, innovations? What are you excited about when you think about the space?

[00:04:49] Bob: Well if, if you'll humor me, lemme give you just a little more history about E2 and how we got started. So we got started in California back when the state was considering the first ever clean vehicle standards in the world, the first ever greenhouse gas standards, AKA, the California Clean Car Standards that have now been adopted by 17 other states. At the time when California was considering putting a limit on how much pollution you can pump into the air, as crazy as that sounds, from vehicles, of course, the fossil fuel industry, the auto industry was coming to Sacramento and saying, "Hey, you crazy Californians. Wait a minute. If you do this, it's gonna kill our business. It's gonna kill our economy, California's gonna fall off the face of the earth and catch on fire and everything's gonna go to hell." But our founders stood up, and they were Silicon Valley folks, and they started going to Sacramento and started saying, "Hey, you know what? We don't know anything about making cars. We don't know anything about producing petroleum. What we do know about is innovation and with the right government signals, with the right policy from Sacramento, you know, again, this was 25 years ago, maybe those Prius thingies that we're just starting to see, you know, maybe those will become more common someday and who knows? Maybe even we'll get electric vehicles someday. and you know what? Those will create a lot of jobs that'll drive a lot of economic growth. They'll revitalize our auto industry and, because we know what, innovation can do." Fortunately we were successful in that first effort and it was one of the first times that business people actually stood up, in a venue like that and said they were in favor of environmental regulations basically. It was kind of a different deal, but to get to your point, this is about green collar jobs. You know, this was about, making clear to lawmakers that we can do good for our environment and for our economy. So let's fast forward. 25 years from then, today what we know from our research is that there are more than 3.3 million people who work in clean energy related occupations in America. Yes. It's the stereotypical solar panel installer. Yes. It's the wind turbine technician, but it's also energy efficiency workers, which is, by the way, the biggest part of the clean economy right now.

About 2.5 million people work in energy efficiency. These could be jobs as simple as swapping out your old lighting in an office building to put in LEDs or putting insulation in the attic, or, designing better building envelopes or figuring out building decarb. It's also manufacturing.

It's manufacturing those cleaner vehicles. It's manufacturing, ev charging, it's manufacturing the energy efficiency materials that we need, whether it's insulation or nest thermostats or building monitoring software or energy efficient washers and dryers and, and dishwashers, right? The range of what has grown in 25 years and more rapidly, even in recent years, has just been astronomical when it comes to opportunities for people who want to get into clean energy jobs and, and hopefully we can still keep it growing.

[00:07:42] Kiersten: Very related to that, in your book, Clean Economy Now, you say that we are at the advent of an American economic revolution that will create even more green collar jobs. Why do you say that? What stats are you seeing?

[00:07:54] Bob: Well, all you gotta do is look around. I mean, I wrote that book as Congress was debating the inflation reduction Act, which gives clean energy tax credits, which gives clean energy tax credits, 30% for building or installing solar wind energy efficiency, tax incentives for purchasing commercial and private electric vehicles. Tax incentives for, bringing manufacturing that is clean energy related manufacturing, whether it's solar panels or batteries or, wind turbine parts to America, and since that law was passed, in August of 2022, what we know is that, and E2, my organization tracks this. What we know is that there have been more than 400 major clean energy factories and projects announced all over America. We're talking about solar panel factories in Georgia and Louisiana. Battery plants in the corn fields of Kansas and in Illinois. Electric vehicle factories in Georgia and North Carolina and Alabama and Tennessee and Michigan, 400 major factories, and other projects just in the past two and a half years, $130 billion worth of private sector investment. 

That's not government loans or grants. That's businesses investing in America, 125,000 clean energy jobs announced so far at these projects. When is the last time we've had 400 factories coming outta the ground in America, guys? Not in my lifetime. Maybe the industrial revolution. I don't know. but that's why I call this a revolution right now. Unfortunately, the bad news is that, because of some policy decisions in Washington, a lot of this is gonna be at risk.

[00:09:32] Aparna: Yeah, so keeping with that line, today we are recording on May 13th, 2025. So listeners do keep that in mind, but wanted to ask how recent activity by the current administration in regards to clean energy is going to impact the future of green collar jobs and investments?

[00:09:49] Bob: Right, right. Well, obviously we've seen a 180 degree turnaround, when it comes to federal policy from what we had, prior to January of this year. The president has said that he wants to essentially outlaw wind energy, and has canceled projects offshore already, and made it a lot harder to permit solar, wind onshore.

Congress, as we speak, is debating basically eliminating most of the clean energy tax credits that were contained in the Inflation Reduction Act, and that has already put a humongous damper on businesses investing, businesses expanding, and businesses hiring green collar workers. In the first three months of this year, you know, again, my organization tracks this kind of stuff. In the first three months of this year, I saw something like $8 billion worth of projects that were previously announced, canceled jobs that were in the pipeline canceled because businesses frankly just don't have the certainty anymore that these tax incentives, and other policies that was driving this economic and jobs revolution are going to be around much longer. It's unfortunate for, not just for folks looking for a job, but certainly for our environment, because we're going to be, potentially producing less, equipment that we need, the tools that we need to reduce our carbon emissions. It's also unfortunate from a competitive standpoint with the rest of the world. I mean, look, this administration and this congress has talked a lot about the importance of competing, and making America great, and catching up with China and, and all of that. Right now, 85% of the solar panels manufactured in the world come from China or a couple other countries. About 90%, 95% of the batteries that are supplied on the global marketplace come from China or a few other countries. America didn't have a dog in the hunt. We actually invented this stuff. We invented the photovoltaic cell. We invented the technology behind lithium ion batteries. We invented the mass marketing, mass production of vehicles.

Henry Ford did. and then we gave all this away to other people. But guess what? Since the tax policies that were passed two and a half years ago, we now have 50 plus battery manufacturing plants that have been announced in this country. We've had 60+ solar panel factories announced in America.

We've had 140+ electric vehicle factories or, or suppliers announced in America two and a half years. That's a lot of jobs. That's a lot of growth. That's a lot of leadership. but again, unfortunately because of this turn, in Washington, all of that's at risk now and it's a big deal.

[00:12:30] Kiersten: Thanks for explaining that. For those who might not have been familiar, and I have to say your book is about policy, it's about the economy. That's not always the genre that's gonna have an emotional arc. Okay. But I just read the book, and it really did because for the first time. I felt like there was more of a middle ground possible. Everybody talks about political divides these days, and how there's so little in common, but reading all these stats about IRA funding flooding into red states, creating jobs, people in the deepest rural areas. People starting solar panel manufacturing jobs, starting solar consultancies and installations, and even a solar school. I was kind of on an arc of excitement and “okay, maybe we're, we're gonna overcome this and everybody's gonna be at peace and the environment is gonna be healed.” Then I got to the end and I wanna read a little quote he says, "we're on the verge of squandering it all." But you go on to say, "I've heard optimism like I've never heard it before in the voices of people I talk to across the country. Newly hired solar panel factory workers in Georgia, clean energy entrepreneurs in Colorado and Illinois economic development officials in South Carolina. But as one battery factory executive in Georgia told me without the IRA, this all goes away." So all of those stats that you just shared about new manufacturing jobs, factories, really turning a corner, and having economic growth everywhere. Not in red states, not in blue states, but really across all states is at risk. So, little bit scary, but I have heard you say, despite the deep political divisions in America and the recent setbacks that we're seeing now in Washington, that you're still optimistic about climate and clean energy becoming less partisan. Do you wanna add anything to that?

[00:14:10] Bob: Absolutely and I, and I still believe that Kiersten, I mean look, of those 400 plus projects that I mentioned that we've been tracking, 80% of the investment is in Republican congressional districts. The actual plants, factories, about 60, 65% of them are in congressional districts and, you mentioned Georgia. That's a perfect example. In Georgia right now, you have the biggest solar panel factory in the Western hemisphere, that recently opened in the district of Republican representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, you have one of the biggest electric vehicle factories in America that opened in, the District of Republican Buddy Carter, near Savannah.

In between you have battery factories, opening up in some of the reddest parts of the country. You met Olivia, who comes from Georgia and has a solar development business, a small business, in the town of Cleveland, Georgia. Population: about 3000. 95% of the people in that town voted for Donald Trump and they are big fans of solar, because of the cost savings when they put it on their houses or their farms or, or what have you. So, when I say that, I'm still very optimistic. I truly do believe that we have the best opportunity we've had, probably ever to bridge this partisan divide over clean energy and, ultimately, climate action, because of what's happening on the ground. You know, this isn't just for crazy Californians, or this isn't just for, you know, the liberal New Yorkers. This is happening in Georgia, it's happening in South Carolina and North Carolina and Tennessee. The majority of those factories that we've talked about are going to the southeast and into Republican red districts. And what I know from 20 plus years as a business journalist and what I know from a little bit of time in Washington is that once something becomes a pocketbook issue, once people can see that, oh wow, this isn't just liberal talk, these are jobs and who doesn't like jobs? 

Oh wow. This isn't just some pie in the sky thing. That company's building a factory in my neighborhood. Or, oh wow. I can reduce the cost of my electricity bill through solar or energy efficiency and save a bunch of money. I. Okay. I'm for that. I might not care about polar bears or, parts per million or butterflies and birds. but I do care about jobs. I do care about opportunities. And so you see people like the Republican Governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp saying, “I want my state to be the ev capital of the world.” And he might just be successful. He's got some competition just north of him in South Carolina where Republican governor Henry McMaster says, no, I wanna be the EV capital of the world. And both of them are hell bent on bringing electric vehicle manufacturing. And, related infrastructure batteries to their states. You know, again, that's what makes me hopeful is that people are finally starting to see that this isn't pie in the sky, tree hugger environmentalists.

This is about jobs. It's about economic growth. It's about investing in communities, and it's about making America competitive.

[00:17:15] Aparna: EVs don't have to be politicized. Sustainability doesn't have to be politicized. It saves you money at the end of the day, heck, I have LEDs everywhere and I have a lower utility bill to show for it. 

[00:17:25] Bob: Really it's about better stuff. It's about better light bulbs. It's about better vehicles. It's about better ways to produce energy, and it's about better ways to use energy, and ultimately it's a pocketbook issue.

[00:17:36] Aparna: Totally. if you're in a conversation with somebody and you're talking about light bulbs, for example, and you're both seeing such different things from the same stationary object, how do you go about having that conversation and finding common words?

'Cause I feel like that's one of the hardest hurdles right to start. if we can bring this back to individual action and maybe just something that listeners can take away, something that they can do in conversations that they have, any tips for that or how would you go about it?

[00:18:02] Bob: You know, it's funny, just last week I was at an event in Washington with Senator John Curtis, a Republican from Utah. Senator Curtis is One of the few climate champions in the Republican party in the Senate and Clean Energy champions in the Senate. He said something that kind of stuck with me. He hosts these events apparently at his house where he invites some of the most conservative people in the state, and climate deniers to his home to talk about stuff. And what he said is, you know what, if you talk about climate, you're gonna turn somebody out. They're not even gonna listen to you. So what I do is I say, "Do you care about leaving this place better than when you got it?" The answer is always yes. "Would you rather have more pollution or less pollution?" And the answer of course is, "well, I always want less pollution."

Right? And then he said that, opens the conversation. And then we can talk about how do we get there? What do we do to get there? Do we switch to cleaner energy? Yes. That would reduce pollution. It would leave this a better place, you know, can we do other things to promote clean energy? That meets those, desires of every American and every person, hopefully on the planet. so that's how you talk about things. And when I talk about things, again, when we meet with lawmakers and we just met with a half dozen Republican members of Congress last week trying to save these tax policies. We don't talk about climate and we don't talk about polar bears. We talk about jobs. We talk about economic growth, we talk about American competitiveness, and it is all absolutely 100% bonafide, true. If we do these things, we create jobs. If we do these things, we drive investments. And if you don't believe it, look at Georgia, look at South Carolina. Talk to people like you. Who have occupations in these areas. That's what it's about.

[00:19:39] Kiersten: Earlier when you were saying it's about. Having nicer things. I was thinking about cleaner air. That's a nice thing to have! Clean water? So love the point about do you want more or less pollution? I think you'd be really, really challenged to find someone that says, “yeah, I want, I want some more of that.”

Give me dirtier air, gross water. Yeah. Yeah, also a good one. Yeah. Do you want, you want those hot, muggy DC summers to get worse? I think they're bad enough as they are. Well, you clearly have quite the widespread network. I'm curious if you have any sustainability mentors or folks that have really, really influenced your outlook, which I would say is pretty unique.

[00:20:20] Bob: Oh, everybody who's a part of E2 you know, again, one of the things that I love about my job is that I get, uh, you know, I don't really, I don’t do anything, don't make anything. I don't produce anything. I don't take the risks on things like entrepreneurs do, really just the number of people who care about, both our economy and our environment and are willing to take their time, effort. to do something about it both in business and by standing up and talking to their lawmakers, about it is always just inspirational to me. And so I can't name a, a single, particular person, but, a reminder sometimes that, you know, there are some people who say, oh, business is bad and industry's bad.

And, uh, there's what's screwing up everything. Uh, but people are people and there are good people and there are bad people. And I've been fortunate enough the years, and, and especially at E2 meet a lot of people who heart, whose hearts are in the right place and are really changing the world, changing it by innovating new clean energy, by investing in these things, by bringing 'em to market, by doing the things that you all do, building decarb and I'm sure you do part of it for a paycheck, but you do it because you, you wanna make a difference in the world and there are a lot of people that wanna make a difference in the world, and that's, that's the inspiration for me.

[00:21:44] Aparna: Well, you're feeling equally inspired to hear that. I feel like you'd be hard pressed to find someone in this field who doesn't care about the outside world. 

[00:21:52] Bob: Absolutely.

[00:21:53] Aparna: If you were talking to someone who's maybe just starting out in the space or they're finishing up school, they're finishing up, whatever education they're going through, and they want to work in the sustainability space, do you have any advice that you might give them to our sustainability, curious friends?

[00:22:10] Bob: At this point in time, I would say: Don't be discouraged by what's happening, in Washington and beyond. It’s really easy to, frankly, be depressed about what we're seeing when it comes to clean energy, to sustainability, to a cleaner economy right now. And as someone who's a little longer in the tooth and grayer in the hair than you two, you know, the, the pendulum swings.

Sometimes it swings too hard, sometimes it doesn't swing hard enough. But the pendulum swings. My advice would be to help that pendulum swing by talking to your lawmakers, by getting involved in getting engaged and pushing for policies and solutions that you know are not just good for your prospective career, but for our future on this planet. And don't give up because you know, the path is clear. The technology is there. You know, the solar and wind that we have today is not the solar and wind of 25 years ago when I got started doing this stuff. Electric vehicles aren't what they were when GM came out with the first EV that went 20 miles or something like that. The need for change the and the opportunities that come with that change have never been greater. So this is still the biggest opportunity we've had, I believe not just economically, but as a society right now. Now this exact moment isn't exactly the most encouraging time for that, but it's going to change.

[00:23:33] Kiersten: A mention of the EVs of today are not the EVs of yesterday. One of our upcoming episodes will. Debunk some of the range anxiety myths that, that people feel. So stay tuned listeners, come back for the next one!

[00:23:48] Bob: I literally just came back Sunday from driving my ev miles to Oregon, Portland and back, and I didn't have a single problem.

[00:23:57] Kiersten: Amazing. See folks, you can do it! I've also road tripped from Boston to Canada in an EV in the middle of winter. And yes, there's a little bit of degradation for range when you get to negative temperatures, but we were still fine. Plenty of charging infrastructure. Not too many stops. No more stops than we wanted coffee anyway, so it pretty much aligned with our human wants and needs for fuel. But Bob, it's very, very clear that you're going to leave an impact and already have in your career, but what legacy do you hope to leave behind through your work?

[00:24:29] Bob: Oh my gosh, when did the easy questions start? What, you know, only that, we can do good for our economy and our environment, and that's becoming clearer every single day. I guess.

[00:24:42] Aparna: You guess, and we know! We're looking forward to seeing this come to fruition, switching gears a little bit to resources. Good reads knows that my “to be read” list is not short by any stretch of the imagination, but we always do like to ask folks that we chat with if there are other books that we should add to this list, or documentaries?

Any other resources that maybe help get you up to speed or that you think are really useful right now? And I know we have Climatenomics, and Clean Economy Now that are surely going to be linked on the episode notes. So feel free to speak to those and any others that you think, uh, folks should check out.

[00:25:18] Bob: Yeah. You know, that's kind of a trick question because I've got like, as usual four or five books on my nightstand right now that I've picked up, and the names are not the tip of my tongue right now. Can you gimme one minute?

Kiersten: Dear Listeners, this is editing Kiersten here to say you won't have had to be patient because we cut out the pause while Bob ran up to get his books, but we really appreciate the fact that he actually ran upstairs to get his books and show them to us. So please enjoy.

[00:25:45] Bob: Thanks for your patience. I want, I've run up to my bedroom to get the books that I'm reading right now. This is the list: 

• Freeing Energy by Bill Nussey. I met Bill in Atlanta a couple weeks ago. He's a venture capital guy, but really focused. I mean, I just started this, but it's a really great read. Okay. 
• Climate Wealth by Jigar Shah, which is, you know, Jigar used to run the DOE Loan Guarantee Program. A noted podcaster himself as you probably know, which is always a good. 
• David and Goliath. Malcolm Gladwell. A very interesting book. 
• I've got Following the Equator, Mark Twain, which I dip into every now and then. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

On my Kindle, I have:

• The War Below, which is about, mining and mining for, earth materials that we're going to need for all of this EV transition. 
• Oh, Jeff Goodell's book. The Heat Will Kill You First. I just finished that one not too long ago. 

Yeah, so that's kind of my mismatch of climate and other reading right now.

[00:26:39] Kiersten: Well thank you for all of those recommendations! I know I'm gonna have to list them all somewhere so I don't forget and slowly make my way through all of them and then maybe we can do a little book club catch up, Bob, exchange thoughts! But yeah, Thank you so much for your time, your wisdom, the work that you're doing, the work that E2 is doing. We'll definitely be sharing things in the show notes. Listeners, there's a really fantastic dashboard that E2 keeps that shows all of the investments and where they are. So that's super fun to look at. It's got a great graphic user interface, but it's also chock full of data. so we'll be linking everything that. Recommended everything he's written and more about you too, but for tonight that is it. Thank you so much!

[00:27:21] Bob: Aw, you kiddin? Thank you all. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for doing what you do, and thanks for a cool podcast. I know it's not easy to, to put this together and I'm just, uh, grateful you, you let me be a little small part of it.